When You Think They're Underperforming...But They Don't

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Being an agency owner isn't for the faint of heart. Strategy, market conditions, building a team that lasts. This is From the Field, where Josh and Joe help you do it all without losing your mind. Back at it today with another episode of From the Field. I'm here with Josh Rickenaugh. Josh, how is this Friday treating you? Sun is shining. Excited to be here. Getting a little bit cooler. You can feel the weather starting to change. It's getting to be vest weather. Vest season is the best season. Vest season. You wear vests well. I've never actually worn a vest, but I may try it this year.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

So we have a we have a full-on slogan: The Vest Weather is the best weather, and Vest season is the best season. Uh, we will also be very quickly, as soon as we get to Halloween. Um, whether or not this episode airs before or after, I promise you our Christmas trees in the office will be up from Halloween on. Sweet. Yeah, that make it festive. We're committed, committed to that. You can't have two months of Christmas if you don't put it up by Halloween.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

You must have talked to my mom. So I love it. Kindred spirit. Okay. So starting off today here, let's let's talk about communication. So, you know, you oversee employees, and I work with independent contractors. So let's talk about specifically when everybody can be on different pages. So you'll have times you have employees or I'll have independent contractors, and they assess the way that that they're performing, and they've got a specific version of what that looks like. And you and I may have the same or we may have a differing perspective. So the question today really comes down to what do you do when you're on different pages? What's that strategy look like? What's the conversation look like if if the two of you don't think what's happening is is the same reality?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, and I've had this happen on both sides, right? I've had conversations with leadership where either I think I'm not doing well and they're very happy with results, or I think I'm doing well and they're they're kind of not. And I've also had it more often than not, you know, with my team, where it's it's most of the time, man, we're locksteput, sure. But there's those times where you get off where you know their version of what's going on is over here and yours is over here. And that's where it gets really scary. You know, it's it if you're both agreeing, I think it's easy to work on those things. It's when there's a disagreement, when the perception of the employees either you're doing really well or really poorly and you're the opposite. Those are the ones that scare me.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, absolutely. So have you had any of those that you can think of that come to mind where where you had to tackle that and and find a you know, because that can be that can be a uh somewhat raw conversation if somebody thinks one thing and all of a sudden you think something different. So the initial approach to that conversation, I think, has a lot to do with what the overall vibe is, whether or not they shut down, whether or not they're open to what you're saying. I think the approach is critical.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, and and what I've found is more feedback more frequently is the way to go, right? You need to be consistent with this so that small, you know, incongruencies do not get big, right? We don't want to have something where I think you're a three and you think you're a four, and then next time I think you're a two and you're a four, and then three months later I think you're still a two and you think you're a five, right? You're you're grossly exceeding it. I'm like, uh, it's still underperforming. I would tell you, my best teammates usually underreport themselves. Right? Like they they'll say they're meeting it, and I'm like, you guys are blowing it out of the park. And that's the kind of people you want to work with, right? The ones that are there, and then that feedback gets to be hey, you're you're you're doing great. You're not doing well, you're doing great. Like, here's the measurements that I'm using for, and this is what I'm looking, and this is why you're doing so well. So it's not always a negative, right? It's not always like we think they're terrible and they think they're great. A lot of times they'll come in and kind of kick the dirt and all shucks, you know, and I'm doing okay, I'll get better. And you're like, no, it's important we recognize you're doing great.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah. And I think you're right. I think there's a personality trait where it's a person that that's probably their own toughest critic that tends to overperform and then undervalue the job that they're doing. Where you have other people that that can be uh hypersensitive to redirection of any kind. So they immediately get defensive. And those are, I think those are tougher to to coach to and have those conversations with.

unknown 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Now let's talk about the opposite side, right? The the hard one for me is when I am not happy with the performance or not viewing the performance well, and they're reviewing themselves as exceeding, you know, where you're going, whoa, like this is a harder conversation for me. I like talking to people be like, no, you're crushing it. It's hard. Sure. You know, it's not easy to walk in there and sit in front of people and they've self-reported themselves as exceeding expectations, and you have them missing expectations. That's a hard and difficult thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yes. And I think it's different whether you're dealing with employees or you're dealing with independent contractors. Um I think you're right. Getting on the same page. I think one thing that's come to mind for me over the course of you know, the last 15 years is going into neutral before I start trying to fix things or even say there's a problem and being able to say, talk me through how you assess the job that you're doing. So I want someone to explain where their bars are at. And sometimes that will give you an indication of where the disconnect is. So, you know, hey, I'm making more money than I've ever made. So I'm not I'm successful. I mean, so you know, I'm our bills are this, I'm making this, I'm doing great. I'm not worried about the fact that I, you know, based on the the metrics that corporate has set or that you've set as my leader, I'm not, I'm making what I need to make. Other people, they they measure themselves. I've had people say to me, uh, I could probably do better, but I see there's four people underneath me, production-wise. And it's like, okay, so you're measuring yourself against the lowest common denominator. So in their mind, I'm not the worst. So I'm doing an okay job. So I think determining or letting them kind of talk you through this is what I use to assess where I'm at is a good starting point before we launch into trying to fix things. And then I think with employees, the fact that you can you can drive so much more because you're paying them. So you can set specific expectations, whether they're production or uh or otherwise, the way that they achieve those workflows, specific things that you want them doing. On the independent contracting side, a lot of the times you're you're looking more just to to coach, to talk about what the minimums inside the contract are, to gain agreement, to get them to just move the needle. Uh, it's not the same as I go back to when my role we had employees. If you go back 10 years ago, we could tell them, like, hey, we're doing a call night at five o'clock on Wednesday. You're not doing that now. So it's a it's a different approach where I think the respect that's had between the two people has a lot to do with whether or not they're going to get on the same page with you, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

No, absolutely. I mean, I I know there's a legendary manager at the company I work with. He's retired. Shout out Mike Weber, absolute legend in the game. Um, people know him across all companies, and everything you've ever heard about him is is real. He's he's as good as it gets. But he said when he took over a territory, he moved in and and uh started calling people. And he he was kind of giving somebody right in the middle some guff, right? And you know what they responded was, I'm not your biggest problem. Right. You know, they were measuring themselves against the bottom. And I remember him telling me, he goes, he goes, he goes, I looked at him straight in the eye, he goes, You're right. But you will be soon. And that was a shot across the bow, right? He was getting rid of the bottom, and pretty soon you were going to be. So if your only defense is there's people worse than me, that's not a good long-term defense. Right. The the industry is changing. Don't measure yourself about how far are you off the bottom, because that bottom might jump pretty quick. You know, if I'm another company, I that's what I'm saying. Right. I'm I'm raising that immediately. And anything below this is gone. I mean, that's what I would do. So I just I love that analogy. You're right, you're not, but you will be soon. And and what a interesting comment, you know, from somebody in corporate leadership to be able to have that gumption to say, you're correct. But but I'm gonna work so hard that you know anybody below you is gonna be above you and you're gonna be the biggest problem.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

No, that's well said. That's well said. Uh one other thing I'd like to talk on just the approach for you and I with the individuals that um we get to work with every day, is I think it there's an enormous difference between effort and production. And I think I missed this early in my career because to me, if the production wasn't there, you're not putting in effort. And I think there were times I actually voiced that and I created somebody that was offended and shut off to what I had to say. And I think there are people that on the scoreboard, most of the time not true, but but absolutely there are times. There's people on the scoreboard that are showing up every day. They're putting in 50 hours, they're just not doing the right things. So, so if you if you minimize their effort, they completely shut off for what you had to say. But if you can see people that are trying hard, they're just not putting that effort in the right, the right places. That think that's a great coaching moment, and you can stay on the same page.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, and we've talked about like I believe most of the measurements in the industry are wrong. We see who gets agent of the year, we see who gets this regional whatever, regional manager of the year. And all that happened was somebody's cousin's brother's, you know, friend bought a business or won the lottery or did something, and you you know, you got one large case. Like I we've seen this too many times. Like it's not really a measurement. It's fine, it's sales, there has to be a winner, but most of the time it's not really a great winner. Usually if you watch it who finished second, third, fourth, like those were the ones that probably crushed it. But yeah, I mean you're right. And I think this is really applicable towards when we're having these employee conversations, right? If if they're over here and I'm over here, let's find a common measurable that that gets us both what we want that we're not arguing about. So let's focus on something that we can control and let's agree on a measurement on that. I think that's what you've been able to find with you know in your leadership style is to help those people by showing them something we can agree on, we can rally behind, and that can be the new measuring stick. So hopefully we're agreeing that we're both exceeding next time.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yes. No, I I agree with that. And I think as an employee or an independent contractor, uh everybody's wired differently. But I think if you're ever really curious to know what either leadership or your employer thinks, have the courage to say, hey, I want you to give me a real assessment. Like you're not going to hurt my feelings. Tell me exactly what you think about my business, how I run it, where I could improve, what things would you do differently? And now you may decide what they say you don't agree with, and that's totally fine. But it's fun sometimes. I like doing it up up the chain with my director and my leadership to say, assess what I do. Tell, tell me what I'm not doing right or what I'm doing really well. But I want you to speak freely and you're not going to offend me. And sometimes if you give someone permission, you can learn a lot about how you're viewed and maybe some blind spots that you had that you didn't think of. Um, but I think it's a really interesting practice to kind of throw that back to the person assessing you and allow them just free reign to say what they want to say.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

You know, the old saying in coaching, right? Winning is a great deodorant. Um, you know, it covers up a lot of things. So sometimes people win or or get an award or they think they're doing well, or maybe income is up, and and it's not a true reflection of the type of business they're putting out. So I think encouraging someone to truly assess you allows you to kind of look in the dark places that you're not letting the sun to and get a real honest feedback. So I, you know, I think that's a tremendous growth thing that you're doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

And and the last thing I'll say is the opposite of that. I remember having somebody about 12 years ago in Madison, Wisconsin. She's gone on to be very successful as a state farm agency owner. Um, but she was in a position with how how the contract worked to where she ended up failing. But she did everything right. I mean, she she worked her tail off. So that the numbers didn't support her effort, but I I always was able to say, look, you you can't measure yourself based on that. There was just some disconnects that she eventually found out. She just found them out too late for our organization. So you can have kind of both sides of that coin.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

No, I agree. And when we talked about this type of a topic, right, one of the things that we were hoping is this could be one of our first ones where we're asking for feedback in a way that we could shape or develop a future episode. So if if you're still here with us today and you have a situation where you know you've had a conversation with either someone in leadership or someone that works for you on your team and there was a disconnect, like we want to hear not only about that, if it was a you know a good story, but we also want to hear like what did you use to remedy that and what has and hasn't worked. We're gonna select a few um and use them for a follow-up episode. It may even be an invitation to be on here. So um if you're here and and you have something to follow up with on this, we would love to hear from you. And they would get a hold of us how, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

FTFguys at gmail.com or they could comment on any of the videos as we check those daily.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, I think this will be a great opportunity to get somebody involved. Um we at least we will reply to you, and uh, we may even use a couple and invite somebody on. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Well, as always, Josh, appreciate the time. Love doing this, and we will catch you on the next one.